EmuMog, is that the same #lwjgl channel that all of us LWJGL developers hang out in??
Cas :)
Quote from: princec on August 21, 2012, 22:47:30
EmuMog, is that the same #lwjgl channel that all of us LWJGL developers hang out in??
Cas :)
The same one where someone literally asked me, "Why should we care about OSX?" when I was trying to get LWJGL to build on a non-decrepit version of XCode (which I finally managed to do, no thanks to anyone there)? The same one where people openly admitted that the Captcha for these forums is ostensibly a trick question, something you'd have to be a Java expert to know, which I am not (I am a rendering expert and am dealing with the Objective-C side of LWJGL, I couldn't care less about how it operates Java-side)?
Yes, I suppose it is. :)
Why even have an IRC channel if its only purpose is for everyone to hang out and make snide comments towards folks who are just trying to help, and to throw as many roadblocks in the way of those people as possible?
It is also sadly populated by the rest of the internet of course :( Truly, very sorry for your experiences there; please come back and ignore the pet trolls who might lurk in there.
I've just checked out the captcha on this forum (having been registered for 1000 years I've not ever seen it) - you're right, it's ridiculous. Mazon! Fix it!
Cas :)
Quote from: princec on August 21, 2012, 23:25:35
It is also sadly populated by the rest of the internet of course :( Truly, very sorry for your experiences there; please come back and ignore the pet trolls who might lurk in there.
I've just checked out the captcha on this forum (having been registered for 1000 years I've not ever seen it) - you're right, it's ridiculous. Mazon! Fix it!
Cas :)
Thank you, I really appreciate your response. These forums seem much more welcoming than IRC. I might come back onto IRC later, but for now I think I'd rather let things blow over a bit after my blow up. :)
Sorry to anyone reading this post who also had to deal with my anger in IRC, I'm going through a rather stressful time at the moment and don't mean to take it out on anyone on the other side of the keyboard.
I have to admit, I felt really stupid when I finally figured out what the answer to the Captcha question was - coming from a C/C++/Objective-C background where there is no generic "Object" class, it definitely threw me for a loop. :)
Also... if you're working on stuff you're going to contribute to LWJGL it would have been nice to get some hint about what you were up to and your progress before someone else started on the work!
Cas :)
Let me put an example of the people that come on irc to ask help with the java question.
(07:24:51 PM) MiningMind: So is the Captcha question on this page supposed to be a trick question or something? http://lwjgl.org/forum/index.php?action=register
(07:24:58 PM) MiningMind: "What is the package + class name that Display inherits from?"
(07:24:58 PM) arielsan left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
(07:25:04 PM) MiningMind: Because the answer is that it doesn't
(07:25:17 PM) MiningMind: I'm looking right here at src\java\org\lwjgl\opengl\Display.java
(07:25:23 PM) MiningMind: "public final class Display {"
(07:25:31 PM) MiningMind: Nope, doesn't inherit from a class
(07:25:37 PM) MiningMind: So what am I supposed to put there
(07:25:48 PM) ruben01: when asking about that question please start your lines with -
(07:25:56 PM) ruben01: to prevent them from being logged
(07:26:03 PM) ruben01: - like this
(07:26:07 PM) MiningMind: - yes massa
(07:26:13 PM) MiningMind: - now what's the answer
(07:26:17 PM) ruben01: - and yeah it does inherit from something
(07:26:41 PM) MiningMind: - What a useful answer
(07:26:50 PM) ruben01: - can't tell you that, there is a reason the admins put that question there, and I am no one to shit on that reason
(07:26:57 PM) ruben01: - but it is a java question, not directly related to lwjgl
(07:26:57 PM) MiningMind: - f*ck you too, then
(07:27:04 PM) MiningMind: - Bunch of f*cking cunts, all of you
(07:27:07 PM) MiningMind left the room (quit: Client Quit).
after leaving, a few minutes passed and this happened
(07:32:37 PM) MiningMind [~mega64man@c-76-100-109-155.hsd1.md.comcast.net] entered the room.
(07:32:38 PM) MiningMind: - ************** f*ck YOU YOU f*ckING ARROGANT UNHELPFUL PIECES OF SHIT
(07:32:42 PM) nbf: kik
(07:32:44 PM) nbf: err
(07:32:45 PM) nbf: LOL
(07:32:49 PM) MiningMind left the room (quit: Client Quit).
I may not like the wording on the captcha question, and I always try to help people who are having troubles with it, but I am just a user of this forum, not the owner nor admin, so me giving the straight answer to someone would be just pissing on the reasons that the admins had to use that question.
I get that you don't have a java background, but LWJGL is a java library, and neither this channel nor forum are a place to learn java, and even though the wording sucks, that question is a basic java question, something that is present I guess in the first 2 pages of any java tutorial or book.
EDITED: removed the answer to the captcha from the log at (07:32:38 PM)
Quote from: ruben01 on August 22, 2012, 00:17:56
Let me put an example of the people that come on irc to ask help with the java question.
Wow, thanks for at least openly admitting that you're just trying to stir up drama in an otherwise civil thread. Thanks for making my report to the moderators so easy.
I am sorry if you think I wanted to stir up crap or anything, I just wanted to give context to what was talked on this thread.
That log that I pasted had just happened minutes before I did.
I just don't want princec to believe that the irc is full of assholes that are just mean to newcomers, some times new users might get a bad or angry reponse to asking for help with the java question but as you can see in the logs, some people just can't behave in a civil manner insulting those that are trying to help them and everyone else on the channel. If you are active on the irc every day you will see almost every day someone asking this question, and more often than not they will react really badly when people don't just give them the plain question no matter how much effort the existing users put in trying to help the new user resolve the question by himself.
Who are you to claim that you're "just trying to provide context", when you don't even have the full context of my grievances with IRC? I hear tell you've been going on about how much of a liar I am on IRC because you didn't see anyone say "Why should I care about Mac" - well, guess what, buddy, two of us can play the IRC log game:
[14:35] <MatthiasM> that doesn't look like the name ant tries to invoke
01[14:35] <UltraMoogleMan> It probably isn't - why are you guys still using such an ancient version of XCode?
[14:35] <MatthiasM> maybe you need to set an symlink
[14:35] <MatthiasM> why should I care about mac?
Did it ever even occur to you that there may have been two separate occasions when I was burned by you people on IRC? First I have to deal with MatthiasM's attitude, then I have to deal with your attitude, and yet you'd rather portray me as some monster when I become sick and tired of the unhelpful, cynical people on IRC? Just where do you get off?
I never said that you were lying. If you asked for help and got that reply it was wrong by those who answered you.
What I am saying is that people responding badly to someone asking for help with the captcha question might be explained (although not excused) by the way those who ask for help often respond when not fed the answer directly.
Just that.
I am sorry if what I posted disturbed you, I was just pissed that when I tried to help someone with the captcha question I got insulted directly along with everyone else on the irc channel for no reason, and then when I check the forum I see someone complaining that when people ask for help with the captcha question they get mocked and ignored.
EmuMog, you were the only angry and condescending "cunt". Here is another example of your anger:
Quote
<UltraMoogleMan> I've got XCode installed, but when I run the ANT build.xml on my Mac, it bails because it can't find "gcc-4.2". What do I do?
<UltraMoogleMan> This is when building LWJGL from svn, obviously.
<MatthiasM> make sure gcc is on your path - so that it can be invoked from command line
<UltraMoogleMan> i686-apple-darwin11-llvm-gcc-4.2: no input files
<UltraMoogleMan> Yep, it can be invoked from the command line
<UltraMoogleMan> Now what
<UltraMoogleMan> I seem to recall Grum had this exact issue
<UltraMoogleMan> Unfortunately installing XCode seemed to fix it for him, and I have XCode installed and working already
<UltraMoogleMan> Oh, apparently you guys are still using ancient as hell XCode 3
<UltraMoogleMan> Why on earth, I have no idea
<UltraMoogleMan> Not sure I even *can* install Xcode 3 and 4 side by side
<MatthiasM> that doesn't look like the name ant tries to invoke
<UltraMoogleMan> It probably isn't - why are you guys still using such an ancient version of XCode?
<MatthiasM> maybe you need to set an symlink
<MatthiasM> why should I care about mac?
<UltraMoogleMan> Because I'm trying to fix LWJGL 2.8.4 on OS X for your inept asses
<UltraMoogleMan> Like I was f*cking contracted to do
<UltraMoogleMan> If you don't want my help, then lots of luck, gentlemen
<MatthiasM> well - maybe start with the build script then?
<MatthiasM> also it is common to invoke gcc with "gcc" and not "some-stupid-large-name-nobody-can-guess-gcc"
<UltraMoogleMan> Well guess what, when I typed "gcc" it gave the error above
<UltraMoogleMan> I didn't invoke it with "some-stupid-large-name-nobody-can-guess-gcc"
<UltraMoogleMan> So how the f*ck about that, you condescending cunt
<UltraMoogleMan> f*ck this, you guys are on your own
Please don't insult others when you are angry. If you had simply notified that you were an Objective-C coder contracted to help us, I'm sure we would have gladly given you the answer to the captcha.
EDIT: Oh and your quote shows only *MatthiasM* saying he doesn't care about OS X....
Quote from: ra4king on August 22, 2012, 01:03:19
Please don't insult others when you are angry.
Oh, gee, sorry for offending your delicate sensibilities, Your Highness.
Quote from: ra4king on August 22, 2012, 01:03:19
If you had simply notified that you were an Objective-C coder contracted to help us, I'm sure we would have gladly given you the answer to the captcha.
Yeah, right. You people on IRC wear your unhelpfulness as a badge of pride, the idea of anyone from that channel, especially you, claiming that you people would have helped me is a laugh and a half.
Moderation: This topic has been split
So, now it's my turn...
Regarding captcha. I dont see any reason to change it. It is a basic java issue, and it keeps a shitload of non-java, non-lwjgl - and more importantly - complete newbies and a shitload of minecraft support seeking people off the forum.
JGO is much better suited for this task.
also, it keeps bots away!!
Regarding the #lwjgl channel.
The channel is at this time populated with 66 people/bots, of which only 1 dev is online.
In other words, it's not a place to expect official answers from the lwjgl project devs - but more general lwjgl, opengl help (and a lot of off topic stuff too ;))
Some people in this channel are very RTFM like whereas others will go through fire to help you. However, your general attitude didn't exactly bring out the willingness of people!
I don't know where to go from here, but I'd just like to comment that there are all sorts of people on the channel - and everybody just has to deal with that.
Ah! The joy of the internets.
@Mazon - I think the answer (and hence question) to the captcha could perhaps be a tiny bit less of a trick question and more straightforward. I think it may smack of an elitist attitude that discourages newcomers, and we were all young and newbie once.
@EmuMob - no-one wants to work with someone who explodes like that.
Cas :)
Quote from: Matzon on August 22, 2012, 06:28:08
Regarding captcha. I dont see any reason to change it. It is a basic java issue, and it keeps a shitload of non-java, non-lwjgl - and more importantly - complete newbies and a shitload of minecraft support seeking people off the forum.
This attitude scares me. If a lot of people who come here asking questions are way out of their league, this is because your website (front page, forum & wiki) doesn't clearly communicate to new users what the basic requirements for working with LWJGL are. Naturally we face this exact same problem in the jMonkeyEngine community, and it's a constant struggle, but we acknowledge it, we keep working on it and we most certainly don't ignore it.
I'm glad I registered before that new CAPTCHA was introduced, because that would have been a pain. It wouldn't take me more than a nudge at one of my fellow jMonkeys, but the message is clear: Programmers only. I'm not a programmer, but I dare say I've made significant contributions to the jMonkeyEngine project. And we have composers and artists sharing their work on the forum, joining up with developers. And this is the way it should be, because
game development is about more disciplines than just programming.
LWJGL is a game development project. That means it is inevitably going to attract a much wider variety of people than the capable programmer you're targeting. There's nothing wrong with your target, but the ones that don't fit should be pointed in the right direction. Please don't alienate your users.
I realise that the question can come off as elitist - and that's certainly not the intent.
However, at some point, you just get too many "problems with minecraft", "noclassedeferror" etc etc.
LWJGL is NOT an entry point java game library.
It might be easy to use it, but the whole concept of O-AL/GL/CL is advanced, and if you cannot do general java development, you should NOT be using LWJGL yet.
Furthermore, unlike JME, the LWJGL library is not meant to be used by non-programmers, which is why a general java programmer question as captcha works so very well.
I can look into another question, but the beauty of it, is that a) it's LWJGL specific and b) it's basic java knowledge and most importantly c) it doesn't not make sense to ask about it on other forums: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_package_class_name_that_Display_inherits_from
So if someone can come up with a less tricky question, I'd be happy to replace the current one.
If we want to ditch the captcha entirely, then we'd need a lot of active moderators ...
I think just a captcha that was non-elitist would be acceptable; really we should only be turning away bots, not actual people. If people turn up here expecting us to fix Minecraft then we can at least politely tell them where they might go instead and they'll go away and never bother us again, unless of course they are inspired by Minecraft into a world of game development and we end up grooming the next Carmack. If you see what I mean.
Cas :)
Hi!
I've just registered, and I agree with the reg question. This is one of the most basic java things (it's in almost every Java tutorial!), if someone doesn't know it then he/she doesn't know Java.
However, it does require a bit of thinking. We should remove the "traditional" captcha instead. After I figured out the answer (after 2 tries) I had to retype it twice because of the ordinary captcha :P
IMHO that really is abusing the purpose of a captcha. They're to determine if you're human, not informed, or even clever.
Cas :)
I was under the impression that we are trying to exclude a lot of humans.. namely ones paid to register and spam spam spam. I thought both here and jgo have had real problems with that.
@EmoMog unfortunate to see that your initial experience with #lwjgl wasn't good but do give it some time, personally I've idled there for a number of years and found it an extremely helpful resource at times as you can get help from some of the most intelligent, experienced and bright Java game developers out there. However as mentioned above being the internet you've gotta deal with all types of ppl.
Anyway I hope you'll have better luck on the LWJGL forums with any problems you may run into.
TBH, I would have answered the captcha question had I been ATK. I guess MatthiasM is not an Apple fan. He's updated TWL straight away when I've had problems.